Monday, October 20, 2008
what to believe??
There have been some things that have come up in my life lately that I am just not so sure about. I want to think that I all of my 30 years of going to church would count for something but lately I'm not so sure. Yes, I was raised Church of Christ in a once conservative church, so I thought. I think I am conservative to this day when it comes to church. I am not one to hold my hands up during prayer or while singing and I am not one to clap and move my hips while singing in church. That's just how I was raised but not only that, I don't feel comfortable doing it anyways. Now here is where I don't know what to believe. All my life I have been told if one divorces due to a affair the other person is free to re-marry but if you divorce for any other reason or you are the one that had the affair you should not re-marry. I have looked at the scripture and it says just that,but is it really saying that. You can not marry or you will go to hell. OR is it saying I don't advise you to re-marry? I truly want peoples thoughts and view on this,even if I don't know you. I am so confused. I don't want to think one way if it really means another way. I don't want to make people feel like I am judging them either. I just want clarification for my own heart and soul not for anyone else or to prove someone wrong or right. Please, this is open for discussion and there will be no deleting a persons comment if I don't agree with it. This is something I have struggled with for a while. If you ask the people you were raised by of course you will get the answer you were raised with, but if you ask other people it will help seeing other views and make you think more. So if in fact anyone reads this blog don't be shy give it to me straight!
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26 comments:
Well, the first thing that comes to mind to me is that sin is forgivable and once you have committed a sin and received forgiveness, it is as if you had never committed that sin in God's eyes. On the other hand, here in the physical world, there are consequences to our actions that can not be erased. For example, if I commit a crime and ask for forgiveness, God forgives me, but I still have to spend time in jail for my actions.
I think this is important in framing a discussion about divorce and remarriage.
I see your point and I agree that once you ask for forgiveness then the sin in Gods eyes has not happened. I guess I am trying to still understand why I was taught growing up in the CofC that if you divorce for something other than adultery, you can not marry but if you do marry you will cause the person you marry to be an adultress.
In either case it's more about what the heart is saying more than what the mouth or body is saying. What are the true feelings in the situation?
So... what verses did you have in mind that talk about this... let's look at each one
Matthew 19:8-10 is what I have been looking at more than anything these past few days.
Well... I guess, to understand Matt... you have to look at Deut 24 and see what the Pharisees were referring to when they questioned Jesus.
now I am even more confused! why cant the bible be more direct and to the point? Life would be much easier!
Helen - I hate to put it so bluntly, even cynically, but the Bible wasn't written to us. The "OT" was written to Jews who lived about 3000 years ago, and the "NT" was written (mostly) to Greeks who lived 2000 years ago. Not exactly 21st century America.
Wow, justify your sins by discounting the entire Bible.
Real smooth.
Well, the constitution was written by some dudes over 200 years ago, so that no longer applies...
I will be the first to say that I am the farthest from perfect, however i will not justify my sins by saying that the Bible doesn't apply to us.
J.R. and Charles,
I am going to have to agree (partly) with J.R. on this. Although the OT was written 3000 yrs ago "for the Jews" and the NT 2000 yrs ago "for the Greeks", so much of the Bible does apply to today. I believe the Bible was written not only to the Jews and Greeks, but for us...those who believe in Christ. We have the same temptations now as they did "back then." However, I do not think that Charles is trying to justify his sins. Charles thinks in a different way than all of us...he has a Masters in Divinity...he studies not only the Bible but anything that has to do with the Bible, Christ, Jews, Greeks, etc. Remember, Charles is used to preaching and that calls for him to put his personal thoughts and feelings on the back burner sometimes. I think he trying to look at this in a "preacher" sort of way. No, I'm not trying to stand up for him. I think, in a way, you are both right.
So, Charles, what is your personal opinion on this??
Here's a couple of questions to think about...What if a spouse cheats but the other spouse doesn't know about it and the "innocent" one wants a divorce for other reasons?
Or...When one cheats is it because of something the other isn't doing?
Don't make it right.
good question Jennifer. Does anyone want take that one?
If you don't know what you don't know, then what difference does that make?
For now I'll keep my comments to the question of scripture - since that's what Helen asked in the original post.
JR - you seriously need to READ my comments before you throw stones. I didn't say the Bible didn't apply to us - I said it wasn't WRITTEN to us. That was an answer to Helen's question: "Why can't the Bible be more direct and to the point?" It takes serious thought and humility to recognize that we are listening to a 2000 year old conversation, and it takes wisdom to decipher how the principles apply to us. Conservative Christians who take all scripture with a literal attitude do great violence to the intent of the text.
About the Constitution - there have been 27 amendments so far. The Constitution, by definition, is a "living document."
Your response of, "Wow, justify your sins by discounting the entire Bible. Real smooth" is perhaps the lamest thing ever said to me on any blog! It shows both shallow thinking and hyper-judgementalism - the two reasons I have such animosity for conservative people and ideology - both politically and religiously!
J.R.,
What I am wanting to know is: Is it still considered "scripturally wrong" if a person remarries after he/she had an affair while married but the affair is not the reason for the divorce (whether the other spouse knows about it or not)? I don't know what difference it makes, but we are having a conversation about marriage/remarriage after an affair so therefore I believe my question(s) apply to the topic. I'm just sayin....
And, one other thing...I never said that an affair for any reason makes it right. An affair is never the right thing to do...it is something that sometimes happens even when you know better.
First, I am far from conservative, although in today's society that may not be as true as it once was.
Second, My comments are colored by the intent behind Helen's original post. We have had long discussions about this topic on numerous occasions and it only seems to become more convoluted. We have been deeply hurt and our faith has been plummeted into deep depression for the second time by someone close to us doing something that was so surprising. We understand that people are human are susceptible to failing and falling. There is no doubt that I have initiated that response in other people.
Third, I will concede that after re-looking at your comment, that it now makes more sense after your clarification. I was taking your comment as a reaction to the original post and not the question posed by Helen. My apologies for jumping the gun and acting on pure emotion (yes, it's true, I do have them). It felt like a cop-out at first read.
If you really look at it. Everyone has commited some type of adultery. In the scripture it talks about if you look at another person lustfully you have commited adultery in your heart,is that the same thing as flat out sleeping with the person? A sin is a sin and we have to remember that. Mark made a great point up at the top saying,"sin is forgivable and once you have committed a sin and received forgiveness, it is as if you had never committed that sin in God's eyes." So with saying all that are we going to get anywhere with this or is everyone going to go back to their corners and agree to disagree? Which I really dont agree with but, I'm just say'n!
Jennifer,
In response to your latest question, I would say, "?IDK??". Helpful, I know. If the unknowing partner is the one doing the divorcing, then maybe, but I'm not so sure. If the one who knows is doing the divorcing, then I would be more inclined to say yes. Either way that person has committed a sin. Back to what Mark said at the very beginning. If that person asks God for forgiveness and no one else knows the sin that was committed, then are there earthly consequences?
Should you marry someone if you know that you committed the sin of adultery, even if the your ex doesn't know about it?
Guys - I know this has been a very testy conversation. I may not seem to be a credible or objective person here, but I actually do have some thoughts about what the biblical texts actually mean. I will share those with you at some point Helen.
Sorry for snapping at you JR. A LOT of people are very hurt and angry at this situation, and I am VERY frustrated!!
Hug?
Sure!
I just want to live in a world of rainbows and smiley faces! :)
Wow... I ignore things for a day (there was church, a race, and football, what can i say?) and wham...
Charles and JR... take a CHILL PILL... just remember we are all flawed humans (hence the need for grace and salvation)...
There are three questions I try to figure out when I am looking at any topic in the bible. (I think I stole this from a discussion with Charles)
1. What did it mean to the audience that it was written to?
2. How has it been interpereted through the years (what are our biases?)
3. How does the remained of scripture affect our understanding of this verse?
I know that this is pretty simplistic, but when you look at the context and the bias, it should give you a clearer picture.
That being said, I'll attempt to add a little more (hopefully constructive thought) to this conversation.
The overarching idea is that marriage is sacred. It represents the same relationship that we have with God, a unity, a covenant relationship. Yet, we break that covenant with God continually through our selfishness and stuborness. Thanks to grace, God continually takes us back.
Just a thought... in the OT and NT times, these were arranged marriages, love had NOTHING to do with it....
Just a thought..., in Jesus time, if a woman commited adultry, she could be killed right? OK, so if she is dead, then we've met the "til death do us part" clause?
I tend to think that all the "what ifs" lead to questions the scriptures do not necesarrily answer. I think that a good deal of what is written had more to do with providing protection for women than creating a bunch of legalistic scenarios.
I come back to two things... the importance/significance of our covenant relationship and the importance of grace and forgiveness. It comes down to working through the dry spells, the hard times.
It would seem that it would be easier if there was no love involved. It would become more of a job-type situation (you wouldn't be able to quit...anyway). At work, I do what I need to do to get the job done. Same could be said for the home. Less messy, more clinical.
J.R.,
I'm sure for Helen sometimes it is a job! ha ha! :)
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